A Different Gospel

Comments

Yes! Thank you for this. (I get SO behind in reading now that Mom is more mobile.)

Though I am confused a bit...didn't quite understand the initial quote...don't have the experience of reading Rob Bell's VERY popular books...don't know where he is coming from, I am grateful for the bold proclamation that we must DIE in order to live.
It's that simple and that deep. Why distort it behind human philosophy as Bell does? My thought is, then we'd have to acknowledege our sin. Understand how depraved we really are. And then come to the horror that we can't save ourselves. We'd have to trust that Jesus really is enough.

Context is important; I should have put the link up for this quote. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/article_print.html?id=81195

His interview is very philosophical. Philosophy is great- I love to philosophize. But philosophy is not truth. Though there can be truth in it, ultimately it's human reasoning. And Bell's (and others like him) gospel is exclusive to those who don't philosophize or who can't do it well. More importantly, how is this gospel played out in real life- outside of the 'conversation'.

The true Gospel- we sin, Jesus saves us through the cross, so repent and believe- could not be simpler.

I've tried to read Bell's stuff. It hurts. I don't recognize the Jesus I know or the Bible that I read in his books or his videos. I want to know the authority from which my teachers speak and where they get their wisdom. Bell calls the Bible a human product, something that must be wrestled with and constantly reinterperated. And his wisdom relfects the teachings of human philosophers and eastern mystics. This is a problem for me.

He said to test his books for ourselves. I tested them. They failed in light of the Gospel.

Dang. I'm really bothered by this guy. Is it because of what he teaches or is something personal? I hope not the latter. This is why I need the Gospel. I sin a lot.

I would ask how that quote means a different gospel? I dont see it.
i think you are looking for things to nitpick...
his quote beautifully defines the gospel.

he affirms the death and resurrection.
he speaks of its proving hope.
he speaks of it being a part of a greater story, the story of God and creation
and he speaks of how it connects to us internally and viscerally.

cause of the gospel doesnt speak to my pain, my questions and my suffering (substitute my for our, its the same)
Hello, jake dockter. Welcome.

I'm really not trying to nitpick. I am someone who gets hurt by the confusions of generalizations and hidden truth- as is in Bell's type of theology/philosophy.

Mr. Bell does affirm the death and resurrection. True. But he does not clearly explain why the death and resurrection- namely that the cross is for the forgiveness of sin for all who believe

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3: 21-26


and the resurrection is to testify as to who Jesus is as the Son of God

and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, Romans 1:4

as well of the new birth into a living hope

...According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 1:3

and through which we are resurrected ourselves

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

This is the Gospel:

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you— unless you believed in vain.
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 1 Corinthians 15:1-5

Do you have a verse for or could you better explain how the Gospel 'connects to us internally and viscerally'? Then could you explain how sharing that with a non Christian would convict him or her of his or her sins and need for a Savior, the need for the forgiveness of such sins through the Cross?

Also, what does this sentence mean? "Cause of the Gospel doesn't speak to my pain, my questions, and my suffering"
Thanks for the response and thought.
First off, I think its important to note where this interview took place. Christianity Today. Why is this important? Rob is speaking to the choir. He is not on the street evangelizing and he is speaking to a most likely christian readership. And admittedly, as in this blog and in these posts and comments we speak different to each other than we do with the outside world (I am not sure if this is a good thing, but its a true thing). When speaking to a group of christians, we dont need to explain terms, we have a bit of freedom to expect that the listener will have a basic grasp on things. So Rob Bell may not have fully articulated the Gospel. But he may have also know his readers would know more. Also, I have done a few interviews with various people (ROB BELL included) and sometimes the people in the interview are speaking to each other at their levels, and not necesarily to the world and the down the road readers. Maybe Rob didn't feel the need to go in depth to the interviewer from CT.

Also in my opinion, he does explain the reason why...
Wholeness. putting aside your cynicism, the human/sinful side of seeing the world as darkness. the gospel gives us a chance to hope and have joy. He also speaks of it connecting us to a movement . The joining into a community , of family. The idea of connectedness. For many people, myself included, this idea of hope, joy, family and connectedness to someone and something is the very reason to believe and have faith. Too many people are depressed, listless, purposeless and apathetic. The Gospel he presents is a good one.
I dont feel that I need to much explanation to why the Gospel connects internally and viscerally...

If it doesnt hit me in the heart, the mind and the gut. why the hell believe in it. I need the God of the Psalms, who responds to doubt, fear, weeping and desperation. I need a God who will be a part of the shit of life. Connected to the suffering and provides the way to a way out, or findign purpose and joy in the siffering. Look to the writings of Oscar Romero, Cornel West, Desmond Tutu and others who don't find The Gospel as a way out of suffering or a promise of not having but a reason to endure it! I know some non-believers that would love this definition and portrayal of christianity. Too often do we provide a "bubble gum" presentation, which promises happiness, sunshine lollipops and rainbows. I and others call bullshit. People may not want to join for forgiveness, they may want to join for the joy, for the family and the purpose provided. That is good enough for me! I also meant, Cause IF the Gospel doesn't...not of. thanks again
Thank you for YOUR thoughtful reply. I'll respond to it this weekend when I have some more time.
Okay, I've had a chance, jake dockter, to read over your response. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Here're mine.

"When speaking to a group of christians, we dont need to explain terms, we have a bit of freedom to expect that the listener will have a basic grasp on things. "

Perhaps. Still, he was asked to give the Gospel, and He didn't really do that. Christians, incidentally, still need to hear the Gospel. We need to hear of the forgiveness of sins every day, for we sin every day.

He also speaks of it connecting us to a movement.

Do you have any Scripture that speaks of the Gospel connecting us to a 'movement'? Could it be more that Mr. Bell has the philosophy of some movement taking place and that He twists some ideas of Christianity to fit that philosophy?

The Gospel he presents is a good one.

But is it Biblical?

I dont feel that I need to much explanation to why the Gospel connects internally and viscerally...

All right, but I have no idea what you're talking about.

Your last sentence is your idea of what the Gospel should be, of what you want it to be. What you want is not necessarily Biblical Truth. "Some people may not want to join for forgiveness", you say? As if we can pick and choose what kind of gospel we want?

I don't think you understand the Gospel at all. Do you have any verse that speaks of the Gospel of Jesus Christ being a choice to join a movement?

We don't choose God- God chooses us. (John 6:44) Man is by nature a child of wrath and chooses to sin, separating us from our Creator. (Ephesians 2:3, Romans 3:23) Yet, while we were still sinning, Christ died for us, and this is how we know what love is! (Romans 5:8) Christ took the wrath of God upon Himself intended for us, and God becomes our justifier and forgives us for our sin for all who believe in Christ and HIs work. (Romans 3:21-26) This is good news!

The joy you speak of desiring is a fruit of the Gospel, fruit of walking in the Spirit, Who is promised to Christians- not the Gospel itself. The family and 'connectedness' also is a fruit of the Gospel- upon being born again, we become, equal with each other, joint heirs of Christ, sons of God, free to cry out to God, "Abba Father!" We are joined together with other believers as one Body, with Christ as the head.

You're right in that the Gospel is not a way out of suffering- in a sense. Christians are indeed called to share the sufferings of Christ. We are called to persecution. We also have to live in this sin soaked world that is groaning for the return of Christ along with us. We are also called to suffer in dying to sin.

But we are also promised, for those who believe, new life because of the Resurrection of Christ. New life now, and new life upon our physical death when we are taken into His presence forever. Freedom from pain and freedom from sin. So, in a very real sense, the Gospel does free us from suffering.

This is the Gospel- Christ died for your sin, your sin, jake dockter. "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." -Jesus (Mark 1:15)
First of all,
I find it very intellectually and theologically arrogant that because I may not agree with you, or have different terms, that you would say:
"I don't think you understand the Gospel at all.

Its a very easy place, and dangerous, to lump the world into those who agree (theologically correct) and those who don't (incorrect, wrong). We may not agree but that does not equal wrongness. It may be different facets of the same. In the same way God interacts with us in different ways. To some he is a rock, to some he is a friend. which does not mean he is one or the other, but both.
The Gospel is interacted with and needed in different ways.
to the south african black community the Gospel was a promise of solidarity with a God and savior who new suffering and oppression. To someone else it may be a love they have never experienced. That does not mean it is not either one, by magically and wonderfully both/and.
So if I understand and experience different attributes of the Gospel, why cant that be praised instead of dismissed.
That is a very high tower. and an easily toppled one.
For me, until I can have my opinions and ideas respected and heard, instead of written off, I don;t feel much need to continue this conversation.

I'm sorry if I've offended you. That was not my intention, but it is my opinion that you don't understand it. I'm even more sorrier about that (genuinely, not sarcastically).

Disagreement may not equal wrongness, but it this case, it does. It's actually far more theologically dangerous to accept all views equally, especially views about the most precious thing we have- the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Either way, you have expressed your view on the Gospel (though at the same time haven't really explained what the Gospel is- you have only defined it by what perhaps is the fruit of it)and have failed to show how it is the same Gospel that is revealed in Scripture (which is why I can't honor your request that your understanding and experience be praised). More than that you have failed to reveal how Rob Bell's version of the Gospel is Scriptural, which was my point in the first place. Mr. Bell teaches a different Gospel.

You say that the Gospel is needed in different ways. The Gospel is needed in only one way to all, it is intended to be only one thing for all- God revealing His love and His justice by forgiving us our sin through the work of the cross, so that all who repent of his/her sin and believe in HIs name would be saved. For all have sinned.

This is how the African struggling with suffering needs the Gospel. More than freedom from oppression, starvation, and genocide, he needs freedom from his sin. THEN the hope that is in Christ is his. THEN he is restored into relationship with his Creator. Even if he goes on suffering, he now is sharing in the sufferings of his Jesus, for which there is great purpose and reward, the first of both being the conformation into His likeness.

The same with the hopeless, the desperate, and the lonely without a family. Man's first problem is that he is a sinner in need of a Savior.

If you would like to end this conversation for now, so be it. However, I'm open to talking with you again if you change your mind. Feel free to stop by anytime.
Julie,
I like how you apologize but then continue on with the same line of thought.
I agree with you on your view of the gospel. but i do not agree that that is all it means.
the gospel does not only mean one thing...forgiveness for sins.
i think you have a narrow view. i think you have a pragmatic purpose for it. that it saves you. but as for the community, the family and others reasons...you have little time for those. or even learning about them.
I apologize for the statement I made of 'I don't think you understand the Gospel at all' sounding more like an accusation rather than an opinion or perception. I feel sorry if you felt offense. I wasn't apologizing, then, for what I said, but I apologize, now, for how I said it. I don't, however, apologize for my one sided stance.

The Gospel is first, foremost, and only about the forgiveness of sin through the work of the cross. Every thing else that you are talking about are fruits of the Gospel, fruits of God forgiving us for our sin.

In addition, it is difficult to give your ideas any more than thoughtful consideration (which I have, even if I don't express it) when you don't speak of what your authority is. By what/whose authority do you speak? Is it Scripture? Please show me the verses. Is it your own? Your subjective experience and understanding of the Gospel is not equivalent to objective truth. I do not have to view your experience as truth.

Or is the authority you speak from Bell's, Moltman's, or McLaren's? I've done the manmade philosophy track. It brought me nothing but destruction and pain. I'm not very good at discussing philosophy, which is probably why I'm having a difficult time communicating with you. It does seem to be a gift you have, and I think it's pretty cool. I just wish I could see the Jesus of the Bible more in the things you say.

So, I don't have philosophical ideas to offer you, nor human wisdom. All I have is the Gospel. Jesus died for you. Repent and believe. You say you already do believe that. Good. Even Christians still need to hear that they're forgiven.
I speak by no authority but my own. I have no claim on Truth. I am spending my life in pursuit of it, trying to understand it. I can say I know a bit about it. But I am no authority and can't speak from any authority. Yes, I have a subjective experience.
Do you truly believe that you have objective truth? I understand that you may know about it, that you have a relationship with the object Truth, being God. but since humans are subjects we can only have subjective experiences. Your answer to mine is a subjective statement when you say " I do not have to view your experience as truth."
What destruction and pain did manmade philosophy bring you? And what do you call the philosophy you have now? Is it yours? Is it based on the writings of men, or does God appear to you? It seems like a high horse to say you are passed manmade understanding and have got it figure out.

i cannot agree that the gospel is only for forgiveness of sin.
what about john 10:10 " I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." he came to give us life.
acts 10:36
"You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all."

there we have life, fulfillment and peace being The message not just an after effect.

Hardly 'just' an after effect! Jesus did come to give us abundant life, and He does it through the Gospel, through the forgiveness of sins in His name! The 'good news of peace through Jesus Christ' is that we have peace with God through the Cross.


What you speak of as being the Gospel, is the 'good stuff' that comes from the Gospel. We cannot have the 'good stuff', such as salvation, joy, grace to endure suffering, and reconciliation without God without being forgiven of our sins. For our sin separate us from Him.


And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing;it is the gift of God, not a result of works so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. -Ephesians 2:1-10


What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now( to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,

and whose sins are covered;

blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." -Romans 4:1-8


But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. -Romans 3:21-26


This is objective Truth. It's not my truth. It's God's.


You're right. I don't know everything, for as 1 Corinthians 13:9 and 12 says, we only know in part, only see in a mirror dimly. But God reveals clearly the purpose of His Gospel, in the Scriptures above, in those below, and all over His Word.


Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospe I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you— unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures... -1 Corinthians 15:1-4


For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. -Romans 1:16

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